No. 34.

The RIGHT HON. SIR HERCULES ROBINSON, G.C.M.G., to the RIGHT HON. THE EARL OF DERBY, K.G.    (Received July 15, 1885.)

MY LORD, Government House, Capetown, June 24, 1885.

      I HAVE the honour to enclose, for your information, a copy of a despatch which I have received from Sir Charles Warren, covering reports of interviews with the Chiefs Ghasitsive, Sechele, and Khama.

I have, &c.,

(Signed)       HERCULES ROBINSON,

High Commissioner.

The Right Hon. the Earl of Derby, K.G., High Commissioner.

          &c.           &c.           &c.

Enclosure in No. 34.

SIR C. WARREN to HIGH COMMISSIONER.

SIR, Mafeking, June 4, 1885.

      I HAVE the honour to forward herewith, for the information of the Secretary of State, the following documents with reference to my visit to the Chiefs Ghasitsive, Sechele, and Khame, and their proposals as to the future of their territories.

1. Account of interview between Sir Charles Warren and the Chief Ghasitsive, April 24, 1885.
2. Account of interview between Sir C. Warren and the Chief Sechele, April 27, 1885.
3. Proposals of the Chief Sechele, April 28, 1885.
4. Letter from the Chief Sechele, written by Messieurs Boyne, Gray, and Walker, April 28, 1885.
5. Account of interview between Sir Charles Warren and Chief Khame, May 12, 1885.
6. Account of interview between Sir Charles Warren and the Chief Khame, May 13, 1885.
7. Proposals of the Chief Khame, May 13, 1885; with map accompanying.
8. Proposals of the Chief Sechele, May 25, 1885.
9. Proposals of the Chief Ghasitsive, May 29, 1885.

I have, &c.,

(Signed)      CHARLES WARREN,

Special Commissioner.

His Excellency
         the Right Hon. Sir H. Robinson, G.C.M.G.,
              &c.               &c.              &c.

A.

RESULT OF INTERVIEW between Sir CHARLES WARREN, Her Britannic Majesty's Special Commissioner, and the Chief GHASITSIVE, April 24, 1885.

There were present Ghasitsive, his son Bathoen, and several councillors.

After some conversation Sir Charles Warren said that, before going on to Sechele's, there was one point on which he wished to speak, and that was the drinking which took place in the territory. He saw that drinking was going on to a very great extent, and wished to know what the views of the Chief were on the subject.

Ghasitsive replied that he had an opinion that it was not good for the people, but he had tried to do away with it on several occasions, and had not succeeded, but hoped with Sir C. Warren's assistance it might be done.

Bathoen stated that he had on several occasions tried to do away with liquor traffic in his territory, and each time it had been ineffectual, but if the General would help him it might be done. The traders represented that they had invested money in the liquor, and that the Government would be angry if their trade was interfered with, or if the drink was sent away or destroyed.

Ghasitsive observed, From whom does the liquor come?

Sir C. Warren.—It comes from the white man, but he would not send it if the black man did not drink it. If the white man were to bring up kegs of castor oil, would

they sell it as they did liquor? No ! because the black man does not want it every day in such large quantities. Are you not aware how the tribes have always suffered for the drink?

Ghasitsive.—Tell me what has happened.

Sir C. Warren.—Do you not know that Mankoroane and Moshette assert that they have been made drunk, and have signed away farms when not knowing what they were about? When you have sent away liquor, how have you proceeded?

Ghasitsive.—I have ordered it out of the territory.

Sir C. Warren.—And then what has happened?

Ghasitsive.—They have brought it back again. I cannot stop them.

Sir C. Warren.—I suppose we are all agreed that this liquor traffic should not continue; now if you will order your people not to buy, I will take measures to prevent the liquor being sold.

Bathoen.—That is just what we want. We give orders, and our people go down in the night and buy it.

Sir C. Warren.—If you issue an order to your people not to buy, I will send down an order this morning to the traders that all liquor must be out of the territory by the 14th May, and that from to-day no liquor must be sold.

Bathoen.—That is just what my father wants.

Ghasitsive.—I will order my people not to drink any more; but explain to me how it injures the people. This is a weighty question.

Sir C. Warren.—Take the case of a single man, and you will see what it does for the whole tribe. Take a prosperous man who takes too much, and gets to like it: he sells his oxen and waggon, his hat, and his coat, and then his trousers (Ghasitsive—and his boots), and then he hires out his wife, and disease follows, and then death.

The party then separated.

B.

INTERVIEW BETWEEN SIR C. WARREN and the Chief SECHELE of Bakwena at Court Yard, Molepolole, April 27, 1885.

Present: Chief Sechele and his two sons Sebeli and Kari, Kosi Lintse Chief's brother, headmen and several hundred of the Bakwena tribe; Sir Charles Warren, Mr. Mackenzie, Mr. Sam Edwards, Mr. Baden-Powell, and others.

Sir C. Warren.—I have been desired by the Queen's Government to give you the following notification. The Queen's Government has established a Protectorate over the part of Bechuanaland and the Kalahari west of the Transvaal, north of the Cape Colony, and westward towards Namaqualand.

Sechele.—Has the Chief nothing more to tell us?

Sir C. Warren.—No.

Sebeli.—What in us has brought this on, that the country should be taken from us?

Sir C. Warren.—Does Sebeli know what it means by the country being taken?

Sebeli.—Seeing what I now know, the boundary line running northwards about Tati and round west in the Kalahari takes us all in, therefore it is that I ask, what in us has brought this on?

Sir C. Warren.—But does Sebeli know what being taken means?

Sebeli.—I have been told, and I have seen it in the papers, that our country is taken, and we the Bakwena were never consulted; therefore I ask why it has been taken.

Sir C. Warren.—I said that a Protectorate had been established, I did not say the country had been taken from them.

Sebeli.—What is the Protectorate for?

Sir C. Warren.—Does Sebeli consider his tribe require no protection?

Sebeli.—What is meant by protection?

Sir C. Warren.—The protection may mean protection from the inside or protection from the outside.

Sebeli.—When a man takes a shield and holds it up, he holds it up against something; what is it that we are to be protected against?

Sir C. Warren.—Is there nothing you want protection against?

Sebeli.—You may see it, but we the Bakwenas do not see it yet.

Sir C. Warren.—Does Sebeli know what has just taken place down to the south at Montsioa's?

Sebeli,—We, the Bakwena, are not Baralongs.

Sir C. Warren.—What does Sebeli mean?

E 3

Sebeli.—A stem-buck cannot protect itself, but God protects it and lets it live.

Sir C. Warren.—Was it the same with you when you came here as refugees fleeing from the Boers?

Sebeli.—A stem-buck gets into difficulties, but when it does so it must get out of them, and God helps it to do so.

Sir C. Warren.— Then does Sebeli wish me to tell the Queen that the Bakwena are strong enough to protect themselves?

Sebeli.—We do not want any protection; we feel strong enough to protect ourselves.

Sir C. Warren—Supposing we leave here to-day, and to-morrow the Bakwena cattle are all swept away, what then?

Sebeli.— I have spoken of myself. There are others—Bakwena—who will now speak, but for myself I want no protetion.

Kosi Lintse, the King's brother. (To Sir C. Warren.) We hear you bring news which is familiar to our cars. You say we were attacked by the Boers. They did attack us when Livingstone was here. I asked him to go and find out what they wanted. He said, "They will certainly attack you, so you must get guns and defend yourselves;" and they did attack us. After, my elder brother said, “I can see no good in the black people; "I will go and make known our case to the Queen; you can stay in the town while I am away." He went away to the Cape (Cape Town), and when he came back he told us he had been unable to do anything there, and had not had the opportunity of approaching the Queen. But the Queen's people had been kind to him, and given him money, and he told us we must send the ivory we had killed while he was away to the people who had been kind to him. So we lived on, and by and by the Doctor (Livingstone) went along up country, leaving us and my brother. Sechele said he was in favour of being friendly with the English, and letting them teach his people, but that the Boers had managed to get Livingstone sent away, and SO he would have to get another missionary. So a German missionary came, and soon a letter came from Moffat to ask about his garden he bad made amongst us. I saw he was not speaking falsely, and said the German ought to go away, and the Englishman came back and shortly this happened. I am speaking ou behalf of Schele, not of Sebeli. I say that we have all along depended on the English. I for my part did not know there was such a thing as a boundary line then; but one day I heard Sechele say he wanted to put the country right as to the boundary line, and through this Englishman he sent word to the Boers at Zeerust. Then came a man called Melvill, and Sechele said to him, "Now let the country which belongs to the Bakwena be known and separated from the country of the Boers." When Melvill went away a message came from Pretoria from Shepstone. The letter said, "Quena, I have received a letter from Lentshwe (of the Bakalla), in which he says I am killed by Sechele, he is taking me to account for my country. I say the country belongs to you white people." Sechele sent a message to Pretoria to answer this letter, and say that if Lentshwe was not in his country, let some one be sent up to make sure and lay down the boundary. The answer came, "Yes, Melvill will come." And Melvill came. He said, "I have come to settle the boundary line; and Sechele sent me and his son to meet Lentshwe. Melvill told us that the Englishman ruling at Pretoria had said we had better widen our country out towards the west, and a boundary will be put down which will never be interfered with by anybody. So they went and laid the line down by the Marico River to the north; and I, Kosi Lintse, am of opinion that Sechele became an Englishman from that time. First he said he did not see any good in a black man, and then he agreed to widen his country out westward at the Englishman's request. From these two acts I say he became an Englishman, and now when you talk of another boundary, and I find the old one inside it, and it is all right so far as I am concerned. If you were beginning a new thing my heart would be afraid; but if you talk of protection, inasmuch as that is what we have been long waiting for, from the time we were attacked by the Boers, I, the Makwana, say, "Yes, that is what we always wanted." I hear nothing you have said to-day to make my heart sore. I hear merely the words which we asked for in the olden time.

General Warren.—When the Kosi talks of protection against the Boers, what does he mean?

Kosi Lintse—I mean the Boers under Paul Kruger and Piet Scholtz.

General Warren.—Does he mean the Transvaal Government, or people coming from the Transvaal though not under it?

Kosi Linise.—I did not know they had a Government at that time. We were very poor, and used to exchange ivory for cattle. A man named Hendrich Potgieter came to buy ivory. We were told he was the Boer chief. I have no more to say, but that I feel assured I am an Englishman.

Sir C. Warren.—(To Sechele.) During the latter disturbance in Montsion' country, did you ever receive a communication from Nicholas Gey?

Sechele.—I will speak now. I do not quite understand the exact object of your coming here. When we see you appear here, wo do not know whether it is life and death to us, but that we know that it will be death to us if you do to us as the Boers do to the Baharutze We shall be as dead men if you do to us as the Boers did to the Bakatla at Rustenburg. If you talk merely in parables we shall not understand you easily. I have seen a newspaper in which it was said I asked for protection, also Ghasitsive and Khama. I do not understand about this asking. The Bakwenas were collected together as they are now when I went to the Cape to get guns and powder to defend myself with. I went with Sam (Mr. Sam Edwards) here. There are others who can testify if I ever asked for anything beside, to be allowed to buy guns and powder; to be allowed to obtain weapons the same as what the Boers had, to defend, myself against them. As to our friendship, I do not know why, because of that, our country should be taken possession of. Why is known only to you white people and to the missionary who lives here. I mean to say I do not wish the Bakwena to become your vassals as Muhive and Makattly were the vassals of the Transvaal and have to pay tribute, but be your friends and allies. When Price (the missionary just left Molepolole) went away, I said to him " Will you leave us now we are menaced by the Transvaal? "Tell your people they must let me have weapons to defend myself with."

Sir C. Warren.—Whom does Sechele want to get the guns from; the Queen, or the Cape, or whom?

Sechele.—When I went to Capetown I asked the Cape Government for these weapons; now I ask you.

Sebeli.—What my father means is that the trade in guns and ammunition should be a free trade. Let it not be shut up, but be a free trade.

Sir C. Warren.—But by whom is it shut up?

Sebeli.—Give us a free trade in guns and ammunition, and we will protect ourselves.

Sir C. Warren.—But who stops the trade?

Sebeli.—The Boers.

Sir C. Warren.—What Boers?

Sebeli.—Nicholas Gey's Boers. They stopped powder coming up.

Sir C. Warren.—But the road is open now; who stops the powder coming up?

Sebeli.—It has not come.

Sir C. Warren.—But is there anything to prevent it coming?

Sebeli.—I do not know.

Sir C. Warren.—Then what is it you want? You want the Englishman to clear Nicholas Gey out of the country so that you may get arms and ammunition up free.

Sebeli.—Let the road be open as it used to be; the road has been kept open through Sechele's country.

Sir C. Warren.—Who is to keep the road open?

Sebeli. —In the olden time by whom were they taken care of?

Sir C. Warren.—You ought to know better than I can.

Sebeli.—I do not know, but I know Nicholas Gey stopped them.

Sir C. Warren.—In whose country has Gey stopped them.

Sebeli.—In Baralong country.

Sir C. Warren.—Then was it the Baralongs who kept it open?

Sebeli.—I do not know who kept the Baralong part of the road open. I know we kept the Bakwena part open ourselves.

Sir C. Warren.—Sebeli is going off the point. I asked who it was kept the Baralong part open. (Here followed some energetic talking between the sons and headmen.)

Sebeli.—We are talking nonsense to no effect.

Sir C. Warren.—Why?

Sebeli.—Because when we heard you had come at first, we heard you had to do with the Boers. Now you have come here, if you have anything to tell us, let us hear it.

Sir C. Warren.—But we were on an important point just now, namely, that the natives were unable to keep the road open when Nicholas Gey chose to stop it.

Sebeli.—The stem-buck gets a chance of living somehow.

Karie.—I think it would be a good plan for us to meet together ard talk things over. Kosi Lentswe has put things in a new light to me. We have all along been going towards protection, but if there is to be a paying of taxes, then it is another thing.

E 4

Headman No. 1.—I think Kosi Lontswe has spoken well. (Here Sechele interrupts him.)

Sir C.Warren. (To the people.) If you can imagine me putting myself in your shoes, I should say Sebeli says too much. He is quite right to be cautious, and to know where he is going before he goes in for a thing, but he is going too far when he says you want no protection. It is nonsense. Look at the tribes all round being absorbed gradually, and do you think you will escape without assistance?

Sechele.—We have all got our own words, and our way of speaking. My words have been faithfully spoken by my brother Kosi Lentswe and my younger son. I don't know what you are accustomed to, but we always say what is in our minds.

Sir C. Warren.—Yes, we are accustomed also to free speaking, but Sebeli stops others saying their words. The question before you is this:—If we now give you protection or friendship, or what you please to call it, what are you going to give in return. There are twenty or thirty different kinds of authority exercised by the Queen over her subjects. In some cases the natives exercise their own laws concurrently with the exercise of law by the Central Government; in others the native laws exist almost alone without interference. What I want to get from you is what you all think best for the Bakwana.

Headman No. 2.— We ought to separate and talk the matter over that we might come up all of one mind.

Headman No. 3.—Ditto No. 2.

Interview resumed at the camp 27th April 1885.

Sechele.—We have come down to tell you our decision. Look at the old friendship which has existed between us, and say why you have doubt about us. What is the meaning on your side of this Protectorate you have established? It seems to me you doubt my friendship, but I have been an Englishman ever since I went to Cape Town. If I belong to the Queen why do you not trust me? That is what I have to say, and I also ask you in what way this Protectorate gives protection.

Sir C. Warren.—I have never shown any doubt about your friendship.

Sechele. —What can we have been talking about so long then if there is no doubt.

Sir C. Warren.—I have no doubt, it must be on your side.

Sechele.—I will speak then. We heard rumours of the arrival of Bethell's relatives to enquire into his death. We heard that the enquiry would commence with Mankoroane, and the troubles caused by the Boers there, and extend as far as Montsioa, and now the Boers are destroying that country. We heard that Ghasitsive had gone to see you at Montsioa's, and still that it was about the damage done by the Boers this time to his cattle. Then I had a messenger to say Mr. Edwards had been sent to speak to me as to what you were going to do with reference to the countries of Mankoroane, Montsioa, and Ghasitsive. As soon as the Chief (Sir C. Warren) arrived, he told us the boundary line of the Protectorate ran from the Marico District on to the junction of the Crocodile river. So far we were very pleased with all we heard, and I collected the Bakwana, so that we might all hear whether we had real cause for gladness or not. Now, I have come to fulfil my promise when I said we would go apart together and consult and then tell you our decision. The Bakwana have come to the decision that they will make up their minds as to the value of the English Protectorate by the manner in which the troubles of Mankoroane, Montsioa, and Ghasitsive with the Boers are settled. To-day I do say we are glad on account of what you have told us, but it is an expression made in the dark and in uncertainty, as at a childbirth, when one cannot tell whether a girl or boy is to be born. The result will lie in the treatment by the Queen of Mankoroane, Montsioa, and Ghasitsive, and her action in the punishment of the men who murdered Bethel and so many natives. We are English, we are one with you, but at the same time we would like to see how you work out your principles with reference to these three Chiefs and the murdered Englishman before we can say we are glad at your news. I have nothing further to say, but I am glad at the words you have spoken, but look to see distinctly how you deal with the matters you have in hand.

Sir C. Warren.—Tell the Chief we are accustomed to speak plainly in our country, and I am sure that the Queen will be pleased to hear that he has spoken out, and it is right that he should say what he thinks. The general difficulty in these matters is that people do not speak their minds, and say what they have to say. I think what he has said will appeal to every Englishman.

Sechele.—It is good, we are both of one mind in our talk. But now as to deeds. When Mankoroane, Montsioa, Ghasitsive are resuscitated, then we shall see the results of a Protectorate, and there will not be one dissentient voice against it in the whole tribe.

I have some dealings with the Boers, buying and selling mealies, dogs, and cattle; but I have only one people I wish to be friends with, and they are English.

Sir C. Warren.—In speaking of the Queen does the Chief mean the English or the Cape Government.

Sechele.—I look upon you as from England. When I went to the Cape they refused to do anything for me.

Sir C. Warren.—Does the Chief know Mr. Upington, the Cape Minister, was up at Kanya to see Ghasitsive?

Sechele.—Yes, I know whom you mean. He sent me a letter and a drinking cup. I wrote to him, but I did not mean to address his Government but the Queen's.

Sir C. Warren.—Does not the Chief look upon Mr. Upington as representing the Queen?

Sechele.—No. When I speak of the Queen's Government, I mean, not the Colonial Government, but the Queen of England's Government.

Sir C. Warren.—Then am I to understand that the Chief does not wish to be under the Colonial Government.

Sechele.—We know nothing about the Cape; we only know about the Queen's Government.

Sebeli.—We go by our own tribe. We have only one Government. If I say something and it is not obeyed, the order is as if my father had spoken it.

Sir C. Warren.—The Chief must understand that the Cape Colony governs itself. The Queen only sends out the Governor to supervise. (Then followed some talk about the Governments between the Chief and his people).

Sebeli.—In the meanwhile, until these matters—the affairs of Mankoroane, Montsioa, and Ghasitsive—are settled, we stand outside the Protectorate.

Sir C. Warren.—Do the people know a proverb we have;—"prevention is better than cure."

Sechele.—The short and long of it is we would say to you, Go, do the work we have heard you had come to do. Right Mankoroane, Montsioa, and your own countryman Bethell.

Sir C. Warren.—I have a letter from the Chief in which he informs me that one of his waggons is taken from him by the Boers. Now I come to see about these things, he says to me, Go and settle other things first. I don't know what this means.

Sechele.— I do not know what Walker (who wrote the letter) put in it.

Sir C. Warren.—Then am I to suppose that the letters I received from him are not really the Chief's words?

Sechele.—I am not aware of having entered into any long correspondence about such a matter as the waggon.

Sir C. Warren reads Mr. Upington's letter to Sechele aud his reply.

Sechele.—Yes, I know these letters. I meant in that letter that I wished to be under the Queen, not that man Upington. But now that the Queen has taken the step of establishing the Protectorate, and you come up here, I have nothing to see but words for this Protectorate, not deeds. You have left the great matter behind you apparently untouched, and come up to me with protection,—I who have no particular grievance to be rectified.

Sir C. Warren.—The Chief must know that Mankoroane's country went wrong before the Protectorate. He gave his land away.

Sechele.—Take Mankoroane out of the question. The others have suffered losses enough. I abide by the letter I wrote to Mr. Upington, but I feel it is one thing to speak and write, and another to feel some practical exemplification of the working of the Protectorate. Ghasitsive's losses are great; I do not know how great, but you do. Wipe away the tears from his eyes first, and then I shall be willing to come under you. I have spoken and wait an answer.

Sir C. Warren.—I have no answer to give you. I shall send your words to the Queen.

Sechele.—I wish to say I have always been in favour of the English Government, but you have come to me prematurely. Go back and do the work you have in hand, and then we shall see the benefit of a Protectorate.

Sir C Warren.—The Chief has spoken well.

Sechele.—What do you think will happen now?

Sir C. Warren.—I cannot tell. Can I look into the future? But suppose a Boer commando comes down to-morrow, and sweeps away your cattle, what then?

Sechele.—Have you a commando ready that you say this? Is there one close to this camp to play off against me directly you go away. In any case, are we not in the same

A 17830. F

tent? Am I not within the bounds of the Protectorate? I know it is established but as to the numerous questions springing out of it, I wish to leave them all till we see how you carry on your protection in the South.

C.

PROPOSALS of the Chief SECHELE.

Molepolole, 28th April 1885.

At a meeting of Bakwena with Sir Charles Warren, messenger of the Queen of England, he made known to us the pleasure of the Queen to establish a Protectorate in these lands, and showed us the boundaries of the Protectorate; and our decision is to express our thanks for the Protectorate in which we are included. But we wish to see how the Queen's Protectorate will help the other Chiefs which are included in it, namely, Mankoroane, Montsioa, and Ghasitsive. Should we find that they are well protected by the Queen, we also shall then be agreeable and without a word of dispute.

I certify that the foregoing was written by Kgari, son of Sechele. The signatures were also written by him by direction of Sechele, Sebele, and Kgosidentse.

Done before me on this 28th day of April 1885.

(Signed)      S.H. EDWARDS,

Major.

D.

Chief SECHELE to SIR C. WARREN.

Sir, Molepolole, 28th April 1885.

The Chief Sechele has requested us to write and inform you that he has received news from Bamangwato, viz., that the Matabele tribe are on the road to make war with Khama, Chief of Bamangwato. He also hears that a large party of Boers are preparing to trek westward, and in the event of their not being able to take the Bamangwato road, they intend coming through my country. He says his traders have but little ammunition on hand, and trusts you will not leave him without presenting him with means to defend his country.

We have, &c.,

(Signed)      BOYNE, GRAY, and WALKER (for
SECHELE.)

E.

MEETING between SIR C. WARREN and KHAMA, Chief of the Bamangwato, with his Councillors, at Shoshong, 12th May 1885.

Sir C. Warren.—I have brought with me to-day a message from the Queen of England, but before giving it I will preface it in a few words.

You all know how in recent years difficulties have occurred in the country south of this. These difficulties have occurred from various causes, but the great reason has been that there has been no strong Government throughout. One of the difficulties down in the South was that there were rival claimants to the chieftainship. Mankoroane, Luka Janke, Botlesitsi, all claimed parts of the same territory; and when one wanted to get the better of the other, he did not give away his own lands, but the lands of the Chief to whom he was most opposed. Similarly with David Massouw: when he wanted to extend his influence, he claimed territory far beyond his own, and gave it away to those who assisted him. The same took place with Montsioa, and Moshette set himself up as a great Chief with territory extending far into Montsioa's ground, and he gave to those who assisted him the lands occupied by Montsioa. To add to the confusion, strong liquor had been introduced into these territories, and many of the rich people had acquired a longing for strong drink, and would sell all or anything they had to obtain

it. First their oxen, then their karosses would go, and they would trump up their individual rights to land in order to be able to sell that, and the result has been inextricable confusion. Now, there is something more which has caused all this, and that is the land-owners in some portions of South Africa have more children than they have land for, and as these children grow up they look about for land to settle on, and they go and join themselves to the first native Chief they can find who wishes to extend his territory, and so there is a constant tendency to war; and as time goes by this tendency increases, for besides these are large numbers coming from Europe to get their living. You have not only the surplus population of the Cape Colony, Transvaal, Free State, and England to consider, but the country Germany is arranging for drafting from her large surplus population, and forming settlements on the coast west of this. The result is, you have the Transvaal on one side and Germany on the other, and between these two a large number of small territories governed by native Chiefs. Of course none of us can look into the future, but we can judge what is likely to happen, from what has happened in other parts. We see that by the difficulties owing to the absence of any settled Government to the South, those territories were occupied by a band of lawless persons. In order to bring peace into the country the Queen of England has found it necessary to send an expedition to turn the lawless persons out of Montsioa's territory, and, upon the principle that prevention is better than cure, it has been considered desirable in England to say, before these lawless persons come into these territories, that the Queen is prepared to protect them. The proclamation by the Queen of the Protectorate is sufficient to prevent the neighbouring Governments interfering with the country, but it may not be sufficient to prevent lawless persons entering the territory,—persons who are not acting immediately under the Government of any neighbouring territory; and the question arises, what is the best way of keeping these people out. Of course you can all understand that it is impracticable to have a large expedition like that to Montsioa's country always at hand. The cost is too great, and the question is how to devise some economical method by which we can keep the territories intact; and I have come here to-day, not only to read the Queen's Proclamation, but to obtain your views as to the best method of protecting this territory. (Here was read the notice of the establishment of the Protectorate in Government Gazette Extraordinary of 23rd March 1885, Cape of Good Hope.)

Gohakhose, son of Sekomi.—We have heard the words of the Queen of England. This is our answer. We do not deny her; we do not oppose her coming into our country; but what we do say is that the Queen must not come into the country to sell it; for if it is sold, seeing that we are an agricultural and pastoral people, we shall not have room to sow our gardens or keep our stock. Further we have made a law with reference to strong drink, that it should not come amongst us. This is all we have to say on the matter.

Ini.—We have heard the announcement of the Queen. We have only one wish, that is, that if the Queen's Government comes into the country it will come nicely, and not result in the sale of land. We should have sore hearts if the land was sold, for we live by our cattle, corn, and hunting. We know that the game is disappearing, and we trust in our garden lands and cattle for the future. We have another law also concerning strong drink. Our Chief made the law that it should not come into the country, and we approve of that law as he does.

Kuaati.—We rejoice to hear the words of the Queen. At the same time we wish that if the Queen does come to be on good terms of friendship with her; and we hope to keep our lands where we sow and feed our cattle, and we shall be well pleased. We Bechuanas live by our cattle and corn, and that which we most fear is the white man's drink, and even our own native beer; we don't like that even. It is the coming of drink which we most dread.

Meguami. —We hear the word of the Queen. We have nothing to say to the Queen if she comes with peace. My words are the same as the thers. We want land to rear our cattle and sow corn. Strong drink is what we dread. It is against the law of our Chief, and we ageee with him. These are our words.

Radieladi.—We rejoice at the Queen's protection. What we would lay stress on is the selling of the country, and bringing brandy into it; but the words of protection brought to us we rejoice at.

Palentin.—We rejoice at the words of the Queen, and we are glad we are coming into the Protectorate. What we hate is strong drink. That is what we do not want to see in the country.

Mokawano.—We rejoice at the words of the Queen. What we fear is that the Queen will sell the country. We should be glad if the Queen gave our Chief a large tract of

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country. Our Chief was born to have a large tract of country. In the early days our Chief's first desire was to keep liquor out of the country. We know if the drink comes it will destroy us. We wish to keep in friendship with the white man, but if we get drunk we may kill a white man, and then our friendship goes.

Ronwe, (Chief of the Bohkrussi).—We are glad of the Queen's message, but should be sad to see our country sold, as we live by cattle and corn. Our Chief made a law to keep liquor out of the country. He hates brandy and native beer also, and so do we, and the man who drinks either breaks the law.

Sir C. Warren.—I am very glad to find that I can thoroughly agree with you on these two points you have laid so much stress on. As to the harm of strong drink I quite agree with you. I look upon it as a certain destruction to the native tribes if they use it. I dare say you have heard how I stopped the sale of liquors in Mankoroane's and Ghasitsive's country. As to the sale of lands, I agree that the lands required for your cattle and gardens should on no account be saleable, but should be kept as tribal lands under the Chief as they are at present. But the question as regards protection comes. What can you pay towards it? These matters cannot be one-sided, and I want to know to-day how you can assist.

The Chief Khame.—Concerning these words you have spoken, wherein the Bamangwato can help in this Protectorate, I reply that the land of the Bamangwato, is a very large land stretching far away. It is our hunting ground. It is not all our grazing and garden ground. It is by this hunting ground we can help, and if our help is sought, then the laying aside of parts of such country for the purpose of the English Government would be the way. It is a great country, but you can see by all the people present that we are very numerous, and our flocks and garden grounds ought not to be narrowed unduly. What we want is to go forward and improve; and I think we can do so if we are wisely connected with the English, for after we have seen your ways we shall take up some of them. But at first we shall not be able to understand, as we do not know how you would take possession of a country like this, but we are willing to be taught by the English how to manage a country like this, and we put confidence in the way they do these things.

Sir C. Warren.—I am very glad to hear what the Chief says. He has spoken as a Chief should speak in the interest of his country and people, and I have great pleasure in making the acquaintance of such a man, and I can see how thoroughly he looks after your interests and the well-being of the country. I can assure you it is the wish of the Queen and the people of England that your interests should be protected, and your lands not circumscribed. I am aware that your hunting ground is being denuded of game, and a part of it will soon cease to be the value it has been to you, and I am prepared to bring, for the consideration of Her Majesty, a scheme by which these parts of the country may be utilized for the furtherance of the Protectorate. It is desirable that we should know how far your garden grounds and cattle grounds extend, and with regard to your hunting ground, how far some parts are more valuable than others. I am prepared to make such recommendation to Her Majesty as will accord with your views. For myself, the only wish I have is to make the Protectorate a real one, and that it may be seen hereafter that something has been done for the protection and progress of the native tribes in this country, and that they may be seen improving in their methods of farming and breeding cattle. Thus I would invite your remarks on the subject. I agree with the Chief that we are working in the dark, and that the great point is to go forward step by step, always taking care to keep on firm ground, and thus we shall best further ther progress and prosperity of the country.

F.

MEETING at Shoshong on 13th May 1885, between SIR C. WARREN and the Chief KHAME, of the Bamangwato tribe.

Khame.—You spoke about putting our proposals and thoughts in writing. We have done so. And here are our writings (handing the paper and translation and the map). We would now know what reply you have to give us. (The paper was here read in Sechuana to the people by Mr. Mackenzie).

Sir C Warren.—This is a large and weighty subject, and one which I cannot give immediately a complete reply. I quite and thoroughly agree with the Chief in what he has written, and on the importance of the things the Chief brings forward; in fact our ideas are the same, as far as I can see, and I shall have much pleasure in bringing before Her Majesty the papers he has made. I am very glad to hear of the improvements the

Chief thinks of making in roads, bridges, &c; as, if carried out, they cannot fail to enrich the country; and I shall put forward in the strongest terms the views he has of stopping strong drink coming into the country.

With regard to the question of the Northern boundary I cannot speak now, as the notification gives latitude 22° as the limit, but I will bring forward all the important points connected with the subject, and I have no doubt the matter will receive every consideration. I can only say in conclusion that I sincerely trust to hearing in the future that the tribe is continuing a prosperous nation under the great Chief Khame, and I must say before I sit down what a great pleasure it has been to me to have had the assistance of your old friend Mr. Mackenzie in this matter, and I feel he has done a great deal to put the matter before you in a proper light.

Khame.—What am I do if in the meantime anyone hostile comes by force into my country?

Sir C. Warren.—Turn them out.

G.

Proposals of the Chief KHAME, with map* accompanying.

Shoshong, May 13, 1885.

I, Khama, Chief of the Bamangwato, with my younger brothers, and heads of my town, express my gratitude at the coming of the messengers of the Queen of England, and for the announcement to me of the Protectorate which has been established by the desire of the Queen, and which has come to help the law of the Bamangwato also. I give thanks for the words of the Queen, which I have heard, and I accept of (receive) the friendship and protection of the Government of England within the Bamangwato country.

Further I give to the Queen to make laws and to change them in the country of the Bamangwato, with reference to both black and white. Nevertheless I am not baffled in the Government of my own town, or in deciding cases among my own people according to custom; but again I do not refuse help in these offices. Although this is so, I have to say that there are certain laws of my country which the Qucen of England finds in operation, and which are advantageous for my people, and I wish that these laws should be established, and not taken away by the Government of England. I refer to our law concerning intoxicating drinks, that they should not enter the country of the Bamangwato, whether among black people or white people. I refer further to our law which declares that the lands of the Bamangwatos are not saleable. I say this law also is good; let it be upheld, and continue to be law among black people and white people.

My country has got known boundary lines:—

On the cast the boundary line is that of the Transvaal going with the Limpopo until the Tolo river joins it. The Tolo is then the boundary; but I come back to Makobe's Hill, and then go along the villages of the Malakala, who live between me and the Matabele; from thence to the Gwai river till it falls into the Zambesi; then I ascend the Zambesi till where it is joined by the Chobe; then I go with the Chobe, and with the Malabi, and (with) Tamalakan and the Botlebi, till you come to Monomoat o; then the line crosses over and makes for Gaina, and Selabi, and Monkatuse, and Goodiva, and Khami, and thence to Tsitle, which is between Lopepi and Boatlanami; then it makes for Lotlaka and Lelwala and Mogonono, including the grazing grounds of these plains; thence it proceeds to the Limpopo, where the Ngotwane joins it. The word which I hear speaks about 22° as shown in maps ought to be taken away. I do not express thanks for it. It speaks of nothing which has existence. Boundary line there is none at 22°. It is to cut my country into two. But I say, is not this a word spoken before my boundaries were known? On account of matters of this description, and to make known to the Queen the largeness of the country which is now under her protection, I put in a map in which it is tried to show with correctness the boundaries of the Bamangwato. My people enjoy three things in our country; they enjoy their cultivated lands, and their cattle stations, and their hunting grounds. We have lived through these three things. Certainly the game will come to an end in the future, but at present it is in my country, and while it is still there I hold that it ought to be hunted by my people. I know that the help and protection of the Queen requires money, and I agree that that money should be paid by the country protected. I have thought how this can be done; I mean plans which can be thought out at the beginning

*See general map of concessions profixed to this Despatch. [back]

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so that the Queen's people may all be pleased—the black people and the white people. I propose that a certain country of known dimensions should be mine and my people's for our cultivated fields and our cattle stations as I have shown in the map. Then I say, with reference to all the country that remains, I wish that the English people should come and live in it, that they should turn it into their cultivated fields and cattle stations. What I wish to explain is, that my people must not be prevented from hunting in all the country, except where the English shall have come to dwell. My people shall be stopped by cultivated lands and the cattle stations of the English inhabitants of the country. I speak this in effect inviting the English because it is a nation with which we have become acquainted, and with whose ways we have had pleasure. Then I request that the Queen's Government appoint a man to take charge of this matter, and let the protection of this country come from the English who will settle in it. I am of opinion that the country which I give over will exceed in value the cost of the Protectorate among the Bamangwato. But I feel that I am speaking to gentlemen of the Government of England. Shall I be afraid that they will requite me with witchcraft (deception leading to ruin)? Rather may I not hope that they may see both sides of the question of to-day, that they will regard the protection, and then regard also the country which I now say is theirs? That which I am also willing to contribute is to make due arrangements for the country of the lands and cattle stations of the Bamangwato, whether as to roads, or bridges, or schools, or other suitable object. And further, I shall be ready along with my people to go out, all of us, to fight for the country alongside the English; to stop those who attack, or to go after them on the spoor of stolen stock. Further, I expect that the English people who come into the country shall protect it and fight for it, having provided themselves with horse and gun for this purpose. Having done this, without doubt if there came a great difficulty, we would appeal for the help of our Queen in England. The right kind of English settler in the country will be seen by his doings on his place. Some may make themselves out to be settlers for a time only, while they are killing game, after which they would take their departure with what they had collected, having done nothing with their place. Therefore, I propose that it be enacted that the English settler who newly arrives should build his house and cultivate bis lands, and show himself to be a true settler and worker, and not a travelling trader. Those who shall be received in the country, to become settlers in it, ought to be approved by the officer of the Queen appointed to this work; and I add, let us work together, let me also approve of those who are received.

Signed in Kgotha.

Witnesssed by:—

Translated from the Sechuana by—

H.

PROPOSALS of the Chief SECHELE, 25th May 1885.

Molopolole, 25th May 1885.

I, Sechele, son of Mochwasebi, Chief of the Bakwena, having with me my sons and my younger brothers, have heard the message concerning the protection of the Queen of England, and give thanks for it.

Concerning the laws which shall be established in the country, I say I wish to rule among my people according to custom, but I give to the Queen to rule among white people wherever they are.

I wish to show my thankfulness for the Protectorate by giving to the Queen part of my country, that it may be hers and her people's whom she may wish to place in it. I wish to give them the country like an island between the Notwani and Marico and Limpopo. Further I give them the country of Gaina to go as far as the limit of the Batnoana, and to take in Duttwe and Morettwe, and to reach to pan of Moshui (Thacwe).

Further I wish to establish that the country concerning which I am speaking is not saleable according to Bakwena. I say let this go on to be the law of the country. And as to the country which I give to the Queen, I mean that we shall hunt in it while there is still game in it.

Witnessses:—

Translated from the Sechuana by—

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I.

PROPOSALS of the Chief GHASITSIVE, 29th May 1885.

Kanye, 29th May 1885.

I, Ghasitsive, Chief of the Bangwaketsi, with my son and younger brothers, have heard the message of the Protectorate of the Queen of England, and we give thanks for it. And we wish to show our thankfulness for this protection by giving to the Qucen a certain part of our country, that it may be hers and her people's whom she may wish to place in it. And we wish to give them the country on the east on the Metsemashwani, where the Bakwana boundary line cuts, and from thence to Mahukhucwe, and Maugerlanong, and Boshwelatton, and Gamathuba, and Mabete, and Pitsanapotlokwe, and on till you reach Ramatlabana. Further, on the west side also, I apportion to the English my country beginning at Sitsago (Moshen Tackwi), and proceeding due south till you reach where the Baralong begins. The lands of Kokong (Magwate), Bosahorsewa, and Kokonti, and the country lying to the west, are the lands which now belong to the English through our agreement and friendship.

And I wish to rule among my people in the country of the Bangwaketsi which remains over. Nevertheless I do not refuse the advice and help of the English, as I shall be dwelling among them. And in necessary works within that country, it is I, as Chief of my people, who will be answerable for them. And I give to the Queen to rule above me, as she is the protector of the whole country, while I rule under her among my own people, white inhabitants of the country being under the rule of the Queen.

And I desire that the law which the messenger of the Queen has helped me to establish concerning strong drink should continue to be law throughout the whole of my country. And the Bechuana law that the country (land) is unsaleable, I wish that it also should continue to be law.

With reference to the white men who are placed in the country which I set apart to-day for the English, I wish to have a voice in approving of them. As to the country which I have apportioned to the Queen in the West, I desire that my people may hunt in it while the game is still there.

Witnesses:—